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tunnock

Beta Quadrant

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i dont think they would set a course for the gama quad b/c their primary mission is to explore, i think we forgot that. In VOY janeway went out of her way to go explore something.

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So why couldn't they explore the space between the Delta and Gamma Quadrants???

(Two of the largest area's of Space furthest away from the Federation)

 

Not quite sure of the point you are making there

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agreed - I was just gonna say that :) you can explore in many directions.

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You cannot set a course for anywhere unless you know where you are in relation to it. Space is not Earth. You cannot even distinguish up from down, because there is no up or down. And besides, they figured out in the first episode where they were. Go watch it and see. As for why they didn't head for the Gamma quadrant wormhole, I have a theory. First of all, the Federation has never seen a stable wormhole before, and so probably doesn't trust that the Bajoran wormhole is truly stable. Second of all, it would require going right through Dominion space, and the crew of Voyager most certainly knows of the Dominion. So, they travel for 50 years, only to find that the wormhole is gone, and they are in hostile territory? I think not. They would chart the fastest (not the straightest, mind you) course home, which relies on nothing more than conventional Warp Drive. Everything else they found was a coup, not something expected.

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Space isn't Earth - you're quite right - but the same principles apply regardless of where you are.

 

Space not having a top or bottom - again true - but how can you accept that Earth has a top and bottom when it's a ball?

Top and Bottom only really relates to gravity, and when you compare to mathematical figure when you have a fixed point.

 

Take up and down. If you have a man on the Earth in London - he will agree that down is where an item is dropped and lands on the ground. If you then move that same man to Sydney he will still have the same perspective. If you was to be looking at the Earth and the man from Moon though you, would argue that down is perceived as the point of central attraction *the centre most point of the earth - and top was the direction away from the attraction. So Down would effectively cover 360 degree pointing inwards, and Top would cover 360 degree pointing out.

 

So all of these things are relative.

 

So it would be ok to use a fixed point - the centre of the galaxy and trigonometry to work out your location and plot a course back home.

 

As for Voyager knowing where it was - maybe it's fitted with a Mileage counter and they worked it out from that :D :D

 

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All they have to do is used known fixed (fixed is relative term in space but it still works here) reference points such as stars which they already know to exist on the other side of the galaxy. Stars which they have calculated the distance to and the distances from eachother, just as astronomers do today. This would create a kind of fingerprint for each area of the galaxy; very specific star configurations which can be used to determine one's location. Granted there must not have been a complete model of the galaxy at the time... but there would have been at least enough to get a fairly accurate estimate of their location and course.

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You cannot set a course for anywhere unless you know where you are in relation to it. Space is not Earth. You cannot even distinguish up from down' date=' because there is no up or down. And besides, they figured out in the first episode where they were. Go watch it and see. As for why they didn't head for the Gamma quadrant wormhole, I have a theory. First of all, the Federation has never seen a stable wormhole before, and so probably doesn't trust that the Bajoran wormhole is truly stable. Second of all, it would require going right through Dominion space, and the crew of Voyager most certainly knows of the Dominion. So, they travel for 50 years, only to find that the wormhole is gone, and they are in hostile territory? I think not. They would chart the fastest (not the straightest, mind you) course home, which relies on nothing more than conventional Warp Drive. Everything else they found was a coup, not something expected.[/quote']

 

by the time Voyager left, the wormhole was known as the first stable wormhole, it was deffently trusted by the federation, hence them sending people through it ALL the time, and by the time Voyager got left, the dominion may have been known, but in no way would they have been seen as big a threat as the Borg yet. I mean after Voyager got lost they were still sending ships into dominion space from DS9 to explore.

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Marcroft - ...What?

 

Nuages - Yeah, but a lot of things can happen in 50 years. Personally, I would rather head straight for home, and risk spending an extra 20 or so years traveling than take a risk of losing a gamble on the wormhole and ending up spending an extra 50 years traveling.

 

Look at it this way: if you were stuck in the middle of a city, trying to get home, would you walk the 10 miles there, or walk the 4 miles in the opposite direction in hopes that you make the last bus home? If you miss that bus, you then have not only walked 4 miles already, but you now have another 14 miles to go before you get home. Sure, it COULD work out, but the safest bet is the direct course. For the Voyager crew, it's a lot more of a commitment than a few miles, it is a commitment of an entire generation. Janeway would definitely go for the safe bet, which could turn out to have cost them a few years, rather than risk wasting twice that much time.

 

Edit: Okay, I think I know what you were talking about, Marcroft. And if I am right, you just proved my point for me. You can't set a course for somewhere without knowing where you are. In space, you don't even have concepts of up and down to help you with that, so you find a fixed point for reference, figure out where you are, and where your destination is, and point yourself toward it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. But, you don't need the center of the galaxy to do that. That's like being on the open sea, and finding Jupiter as a reference, instead of finding Polaris. They would just map the stars around them, and, by their size, energy output, and relation to each other, figure out within a few seconds where they are in the galaxy.

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I think it was a mistake by the witers to put the Ferengi from the Barzan wormhole in since that would have meant they were close to the Gamma quadrant. This would have meant that if you made for the Bajoran wormhole in the gamma quadrant you might get home quicker (assuming you can get through) if it were blocked then you have extented your trip but not gone backwards as queenhank suggests.

However if they were further away from the gamma quadrant it is shorter to head directly home. However since I have never seen an official and acurate map of where everything is I can't be certain.

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I think it's fair to say that the distance from Voyager's start point to the wormhole would be a lot faster than a jaunt back to the Alpha Quadrant.

 

As to the Dominion factor... well, surely that has to come down to probability. Chances of running into a powerful hostile species when running back straight to the Alpha Quadrant vs. dangers of running through Dominion space.

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If Earth is, as it is usually thought to be, on the border of the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and Voyager was deposited somewhere close (which I would say would be 5 or 6 years, given the scale of things) to the border of the Delta and Gamma quadrants (they did, after all, encounter the Barzan Ferengi, who were said to have been deposited at the edge of the Delta quadrant), then it would most certainly take them further from Earth to go toward the Gamma quadrant wormhole. Sure, once there, they would get home safely, but if, for some reason, they can't use the wormhole, then they are much further from Earth than they were to start with. Hell, at best, they would be a couple years closer than they were to start with, but took five or six times as long to get there.

 

I would guess that Voyager made an overall straight (with a bit of curving for ease of travel) line down the edge of the Delta quadrant to Earth at the edge of the Alpha quadrant.

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So why couldn't they explore the space between the Delta and Gamma Quadrants???

(Two of the largest area's of Space furthest away from the Federation)

 

Not quite sure of the point you are making there

 

i guess that the point i forgot to put in was that it was probly more sane at that time to go home the way that was the 'most sure' thing. Going to the gama quad would put a rather risky variable in charge of the ships fate, the wormhole. They dont know if the Dominion did something to it or if the Federation did something to it, or if it would still be there. But i know that at the time VOY left, tensions where high between the Dominion and the Federation. it seems only a fool would think that the two powers could come to term with out military confritation.

 

I bet Janeway and invetably the writers took that into account. so ultimatley they went the way that would take them stright to the Federation, and did not take the risk of tavaling over 75,000 light years to posible have to travel another 50,000. That my friend is my point i was makeing. Why not Study the space on the sure way home.

 

EDIT: I also think that doing such a risky undertaking like going to the Gama quad instead of stright home would be aginst every moral fiber in janeway. She has contanly shown that she puts the safty of the crew above all else. She has even passed up several of Mr.Kim's brilliant suggestions just to protect the crew. SHe is responsble and feels responsible for getting them stranded out there. I think that was also a variable in the equation of getting home.

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Ah yes - the immense risks of Dominion space vs. the free and easy passage through Borg space.

 

I think the point about the wormhole is valid though - there is always the possibility something happened to it and it's not as if it was on the way home...

 

As to Janeway's dedication to her crew - well, I don't know about that. SUre one week she's doing it but who is to say next week that crazy mama won't be putting everyone's life at risk to look at an all new type of deadly energy field? Swings and roundabouts.

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I think it was a mistake by the witers to put the Ferengi from the Barzan wormhole in since that would have meant they were close to the Gamma quadrant.

 

The Barzan wormhole dumped the Ferengi into the Delta Quadrant, not the Gamma. The Barzan originally thought that it went to the Gamma quadrant because that's where their probe went. Later, when the Federation and Ferengi shuttles went in, they discover that they are now in the Delta Quadrant and that the end they are now on shifts position. This is what traps the Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant.

 

It should also be noted that Voyager has to take a path that brings them nearer and nearer to the center of the galaxy, where all four quadrants intersect.

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Didn't the quicksilver Voyager copy plan to go straight through the Galactic core or something?

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That would be insanity! There is an immense (IMMENSE, I SAY!!!!!!!) super massive black hole at the very center of the galaxy (and from what we know, all galaxies).

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I'm not an astronomer, but there appear to be large regions of empty space between where the Caretaker sent Voyager and the wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant.

 

Check it out:

 

chart.jpg

 

Given the fact that a starship constantly needs supplies to continue its mission, I think that Voyager's course was the right one.

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Aha, very observant. Except there is a problem with this map which makes me question it's accuracy. Notice where the federation is? Isn' that a great deal of distance from the outer edge where earth is? Problem? Maybe. But all the maps I have found place the federation in that spot, including this one: http://www.trekguide.com/map.htm

 

Maybe I'm just wrong about where I think earth is. I'll check up on it.

 

Edit: Found this: http://www.phy.cuhk.edu.hk/people/teach/mcchu/gee240m/Chap_15/Sec15_1.html

Note where it says the sun is located; in the image on the left, and then note it's position in the image on the right... I'm confused!!! :stare:

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like I said before - earth sholud be in the most outer rim. even tho st is the future, we didnt move that much toward the centre - that takes like billons of billons years..

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ok, if we look this chart - earth should be somewhere in the area of the breen confederacy or even more in the outer rim

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like I said before - earth sholud be in the most outer rim. even tho st is the future' date=' we didnt move that much toward the centre - that takes like billons of billons years..[/quote']

 

Actually Our Sun is about 2/3 from the galactic center (picture) and the location of the Federation is accurate in most ST milkyway charts, but thers's still inaccuraties with the location of the spiral arms. And the spiral arms are naturally regions where the star density is by far greater than in between the spiral arms and that would effect the spread of expanding empires/federation/alliances/.

 

Since ST is sci-fi it really doesn't matter that much, unless your an astronomer. ;)

 

 

milkyway56iw.jpg

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That would be insanity! There is an immense (IMMENSE' date=' I SAY!!!!!!!) super massive black hole at the very center of the galaxy (and from what we know, all galaxies).[/quote']

 

Well, if you'll recall, in the Star Trek universe, there is no black hole at the center of the galaxy. Rather, there is a massive energy barrier (long thought impassable), which seals in a malevolent being of immense power. The Star Trek universe likewise differs from ours in that the galaxy's outer rim is surrounded by another energy barrier (which, under the right circumstances, can bestow upon humans god-like powers).

 

Of course, it is possible that the entity at the center of the galaxy IS in a black hole, but has the power to change its immediate surroundings to suit it.

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Actually Our Sun is about 2/3 from the galactic center (picture) and the location of the Federation is accurate in most ST milkyway charts, but thers's still inaccuraties with the location of the spiral arms. And the spiral arms are naturally regions where the star density is by far greater than in between the spiral arms and that would effect the spread of expanding empires/federation/alliances/.

 

Since ST is sci-fi it really doesn't matter that much, unless your an astronomer. ;)

 

ok, its 2/3rds - you win :) inaccuraties with the location of the spiral arms and the spread of expanding empires/federation/alliances is actually easier in this middle spaces; less worlds to conquer - faster you can claim its yours ;)

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If you see a top down view, you could be forgiven for thinking it was closer.

 

As to the super massive black hole cluster... well, I'd rather have that than "the final frontier".

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